"Deoch and the Dubhaimid" ((Inuyoko Mass #25))

"Deoch and the Dubhaimid"

by Inuyoko

Originally read in deoch 216 on 6th sun of the 6th moon.

((12/4/2025))

Hello everyone, my name is Inuyoko T’Alveni. I am a Priestess of this Shrine and a member of its clergy since deoch 53. Last double-moon, we spoke about love, friendship, and gratitude. Today, I’d like to shift our conversations back towards a bit of history, and philosophy. Specifically, I’d like to discuss who or what Deoch may have been, and whether and to what extent it even matters. One of the surprising things is just how little historical research has been done on Deoch’s origins. Even the realm of speculation is scant in written record. Three of the works that I’ve discussed before are Niall’s “Legend of Deoch,” Mikado’s “Scrolls of Danaan,” and Lethalia’s “Alternative History of Temuair.” Each of these works have suspect details in them, though I would say that Niall’s feels the most defensible to me. Even in that work, Niall begins by stating that the Seanchas Temuair refers to Deoch as a Dubhaimid. It is possible that he had access to parts of the Seanchas that I have not seen, but to my knowledge it does not state that. It is, however, a commonly held belief. He also shares a series of journal entries, military reports, and wives tales about Deoch. I’d like to talk about the speculations on Deoch as a human vs. as a Dubhaimid.

Firstly, there are the competing claims that Deoch was a Dubhaimid, or that he was originally human. This is a question that I have wrestled with, and I have my own view, but a major crux of the issue is understanding the nature of the Dubhaimid themselves. We know that there are many types, from the small, almost larval form of the Dunan, to ones like the Succubi, which display great intelligence and autonomy. We know of incredibly powerful Dubhaimid such as Anaman. With so much variety, the question of what unites them must be asked. Is it that their very essence is composed of darkness? Is it that they are born from or allied with Chadul? We know that the Greater Dubhaimid are capable of taking human forms, but by all accounts these seem to be temporary deceptions, and not their natural state of being. All of this is to say when we consider whether Deoch Himself is or was a Dubhaimid, there isn’t a clear answer. If the journals and records shared by Niall are to be believed at all, then it seems pretty clear that He was human at one time. We know that it is not impossible for humans to ascend to the status of gods. If Gramail, Luathas, and Fiosachd could do it through the secrets of Kadath, it seems reasonable that a human with a particular propensity for dark magic could be chosen by and ascended to a sort of godhood through beings as powerful as Chadul and Danaan. Similarly, both Deoch and Sgrios have been referred to as Dubhaim gods. I believe this distinction between Dubhaim and Dubhaimid is important, as I also think it is questionable to speculate that Sgrios Himself is a Dubhaimid.

Another matter that relates to this question of the essence of the Dubhaimid is speculation of whether Dubhaimid are born or created as they are, or if some manner of transmogrification is possible. When reflecting on Swanberg’s “The Birth of the Daemon Anaman”, we are given a story wherein a dead woman is stolen away, and returned as a Succubus, later giving birth to the creature that would become Anaman. This seems to suggest that it is possible for humans to become Dubhaimid, and if that is true, then we are back to where we started as far as conjecture over whether Deoch is or was one, even if we were to accept that he *was* human. 

I am interested in what you all think about the question, but I would like to wrap up for now by asking the question I asked in the beginning. Does it really matter what Deoch’s true essence was? I have spoken many times about my view that Deoch is, as much as anything else, a patron god of rehabilitation. To some, the nature of His past ills may still be inexcusable. We may disagree on how much work must be done to provide proportional recompense for one’s actions. But Deoch’s story gives us a hopeful lesson about the capacity for change, and self-improvement. It emphasizes to us the power of love. And it emphasizes the responsibility that comes with our spark, to not give in to the darkness. To be the warmth for others as Deoch’s flame is for each of us. That to me is what truly matters.

Mass is cast.

At this time, I would love to hear your thoughts and perspectives on the topic of Deoch’s nature, as it’s one that I find endlessly fascinating, and I have heard many different opinions on it.

TheVoid: *clears throat* 

TheVoid: I feel that our essence does not make us who we are 

TheVoid: well do bad things and we are all capable of doing 

reikachama: Thank you for the mass, Inuyoko!

TheVoid: *evil*  but what we are now is not what we were 

Absobel" i have a quick remark on the difference between Dubhaim/id

TheVoid: I also wonder, if the dubhamid apologies if i'm spelling 

TheVoid: it wrong, were aisling at one point than is it possible

TheVoid: they like deoch can retain what made them then

Inuyoko: I'm not sure how you spell it, but you are pronouncing it

Inuyoko: closely enough for me to understand.

Inuyoko: I agree with what you said first, and as far as the 

Inuyoko: last part, that is really unclear.

WillaLala: *covers a chuckle with a sleeve*

Inuyoko: There isn't really much evidence that any Dubhaimid were

Inuyoko: once *Aislings* specifically, but if stories like the

Inuyoko: one Swanberg tells about Anaman are true, then it's not 

Inuyoko: impossible.

WillaFel: *vibrates excitedly and raises his hand*

Kedian: *frowns* An awful fate, if true...

Inuyoko: I think that is sort of the crux of the issue, and why 

Inuyoko: it's so difficult to know unless we come across an example

Inuyoko: in modern times of such a transformation.

Inuyoko: Willa, I will get to you next, but Absobel had asked to

Inuyoko: say something next :)

Inuyoko: Absobel?

Absobel: Yeah, it's really quick and not exaaactly about Deoch

WillaFel: Oh oh.. Sorry! Sorry! *blushes*

Absobel: but you mentioned a difference between Dubhaim and 

Inuyoko: No worries, she whispered it to me :)

Absobel: Dubhaimid

Absobel: From my research on the tuatha's tongue

Inuyoko: *nods* Yes. 

Absobel: Dubh means dark, Dubhaim means "I blacken" and Dubhaimid

Absobel: "We blacken" so it seems like there is a difference maybe

Absobel: just on the plural form?

Absobel: But not really on the nature?

Kedian: ...Hmm.

Absobel: At least from the ethymology

Absobel: ((according to irish conjugason))

Absobel: ((from wikipedia))

Inuyoko: I'm not exactly sure. In the common parlance, I've

Inuyoko: always thought of the difference as more like...

Inuyoko: Dubhaim referring to something of the Darkness, or 

Inuyoko: associated with Chadul, and Dubhaimid as specifically

Inuyoko: denoting a class, species, variety of creature, in the 

Inuyoko: same way that there are human, fae, etc. But it's rather

Absobel: I meant to have a look in my research on where exactly

Inuyoko: unclear whether that is the case that they are a single

Kedian: *nods*

Inuyoko: thing in that same sense.

Absobel: which term is used rather than the other

Inuyoko: I imagine it's rather messy.

Absobel: i feel like there's something like you're saying yeah

Absobel: it is

Inuyoko: My example is the one I typically go with

Inuyoko: Sgrios and Deoch were "Dubhaim" gods, but I don't 

Inuyoko: personally believe either are or were ever Dubhaimid, but

Inuyoko: that is not something I can back up empirically.

TheVoid: *listens intently*

Inuyoko: Willa? :)

Inuyoko: I'll get to you next, Konner.

WillaLala: Hmm? Oh, you mean Fel, apologies.

Inuyoko: Oh, WillaFel, yes, I am sorry.

WillaFel: Oh! What do you think of Deksar's theories this? That

WillaFel: 

WillaFel: The dubaimid form societies, and the bigger ones 

WillaFel: pop out little baby dubhaimed? Oh! And that some have

WillaFel: more signs of intelligence than others... OH! The ones

WillaFel: hidden deep within Lor... err.. A place.. They are like

WillaFel: dubhaimid in form, but they are more like puppets! Did yo

WillaFel: you know they wield LIGHT?? I wonder if these are

WillaFel: creations of the remnants of.. er... bad people, or 

WillaFel: were appropriated from 

SethRichards: *eyes go wide with fear and confusion*

WillaFel: "natural" dubhaimed? 

Inuyoko: You know, I have heard that the creatures underneath

Inuyoko: Loures have properties of Light in them, which raises a 

Inuyoko: whole other host of questions, I suppose...

Inuyoko: I can't say for certain. Although I appreciate you

WillaLala: *shifts uncomfortably*

Inuyoko: bringing up Deksar's work, because I do think it is one

Inuyoko: of the main works that argues for Dubhaimid as a sort of

Inuyoko: class of being with its own culture.

WillaFel: *blushes and slinks back a bit, whispering "I didn't say 

WillaFel: it, she did!"

Absobel" i have nohting concrete about that but there was a dialog

Absobel" line about dubhaims c oming from another realm or smth

Absobel" in medenia i think?

TheVoid: would that mean then that within their culture

Absobel" like the creants

Inuyoko: I am unclear from memory what the timing looked like 

Inuyoko: between the first appearance of the Dubhaimid and the 

TheVoid: they have what they consider good and evil?*

Inuyoko: appearance of Chadul. I'm not sure if that's even 

Inuyoko: important, but I believe the Dubhaimid preceded Chadul's

Inuyoko: appearance by quite a lot, which could be an argument

Inuyoko: for their autonomy.

Kedian: *thinks*

Inuyoko: I think it's plausible.

Inuyoko: I have known people who have bonded with Succubi, but it's

Inuyoko: sort of unclear to me if they are true Succubi, or more of

Inuyoko: a jollynculus of sorts, kind of like fel was saying about

Inuyoko: the creatures beneath the jails of Loures.

Inuyoko: ((*sigh* I hope everyone understands what that word was

Inuyoko: supposed to be.))

Konner: ((Quite jolly))

Kedian: ((ell oh ell))

WillaFel: *looks embarassed and mouths "I didnt say it!!*

Absobel> Are they Dubhaimid, or are they the two creatures in

Absobel> Noam and Asilon? Because it's unclear whether those are

Kedian: Maybe they wield light because that's what they wielded in

SethRichards: *states bluntly and probably too loud* Cambion?

Absobel> Dubhaimid, even though one of them shares a sprite :P

Kedian: their former life...?

WillaLala" Apologies, there are... certain parties in the kingdom

Absobel" hmm, i didn't think about that, i'll update you in 93

Absobel" years when i get to medenia

Absobel> Amusing

WillaLala" that don't take kindly to certain.. rumors. Forgive us

WillaLala" if we seem a bit nervous.

WillaLala> You're fine, I understand. I am less fearful of 

WillaLala> Loures, I will say it :) Let them take me!

Inuyoko: It's hard to say.

WillaLala" Hah, I suppose not being housed within the kingdom

Inuyoko: I remember having a discussion with Wormtongue once

WillaLala" limits has its benefits...

Inuyoko: and he proposed an idea, not necessarily that he was a 

Inuyoko: proponent of, but had considered, that perhaps all 

Inuyoko: Dubhaimid are souls which have been converted. Those 

Inuyoko: resting on the waves of Grinneal, corrupted and 

Inuyoko: transformed by some force, whether it is Chadul,

Inuyoko: Darkness itself, or something else entirely.

Inuyoko: It would certainly explain some of these confusions.

Kedian: ...Hm. I find that extremely disquieting.

WillaLala: *raises his hand*

Inuyoko: I do as well.

Flayre: *steps forward*

Flayre: I am sorry

Flayre: may i be excused?

Inuyoko: Of course. I casted Mass so any who need to go can :)

Inuyoko: Thank you for being here.

Flayre: thank you, it was very insightful

Inuyoko: Thank you. Please take care~

Inuyoko: Yes, WillaLala?

KewlGuy: thz

KewlGuy: thank you

WillaLala: For one, I have noticed how remarkably few historical

WillaLala: records of all the gods... and nearly everything else.

WillaLala: Nearly the entirety of what he have in the Loures

WillaLala: Library is authored by Aislings - we have little that

WillaLala: predates our creation. I am of a mind that, while 

WillaLala: a worthy topic of discussion, I am inclined to 

WillaLala: favor studies of the present - so my understanding of

WillaLala: history is not as strong as others. But from what I

WillaLala: have seen, I do lean towards the theory that 

WillaLala: Deoch was likely a mortal human, and that his elevation

WillaLala: to divinity was likely the work of Dubhaimed, though I a

WillaLala: am also partial to the theory that Dubhaimed can be

WillaLala: created from mortals, in certain circumstances.

<!Farah> anyone making a party or have space? ^^

Kedian: ...*eyebrow raised*

Alastar: *sways in place, dizzy* too much thinking...

Kedian: Huh.

Inuyoko: I agree with your point about focusing on the present.

Inuyoko: None of this informs much about my theology, but I do

Inuyoko: find it interesting to entertain the ideas.

WillaLala: *nods in agreement*

Inuyoko: Does anyone else have anything they'd like to share? :)

Kedian: Only that your mass was lovely, and I found your comments

SethRichards: *tilts head* Nature vs nuture? Personal evolution?

Kedian: about Deoch as the god of redemption to be...fascinating,

Kedian: and fairly true.

Inuyoko: Thank you.

Absobel: i do agree, lovely mass :)

Inuyoko: I'm sorry, Seth, do you mind elaborating?

<!EzioAudltore> 

<!EzioAudltore> still need a party?

SethRichards: Lots of info I need to try and absorb... Oh..., the,-

<!Reias> I do!

TheVoid: i've always wondered if anyone or thing can be forgiven 

SethRichards: uh, the whole redemption arc. Nature, ya know - how -

<!Farah> just did a random ask  and got one

TheVoid: for what they did in the past ?

SethRichards: we supposedly /are/. And how we change for the better

SethRichards: or worse. And how we grow. When a god c-can do it,-

SethRichards: -it is a, uh, good model... for mortals...

Inuyoko: 

<!EzioAudltore> ok

<!EzioAudltore> Amusing

<!EzioAudltore> well if you need a grp

Inuyoko: I think so as well. I believe that our sparks gifts us

<!EzioAudltore> go to 6 16

Inuyoko: something that is shared by the gods. The exact nature of

Inuyoko: that something I cannot say, but I feel it is there. 

<!Absobel> how many free spots?

Inuyoko: The path may look different for each person, but we have

Inuyoko: a great capacity for change, to be sure.

WillaLala: If I may, I would like to address TheVoid's question.

Inuyoko: By all means.

WillaLala: The question of forgiveness for one's past - while it

reikachama: thank you for the mass it was very interesting 

reikachama: to hear everyones opinions on this

Inuyoko: :) You're welcome, reika. Thank you for coming.

WillaLala: depends on the act, but in most cases, forgivness can

reikachama: bye everyone

WillaLala: be earned by one who truely regrets their actions and

Inuyoko: Take care~

WillaLala: puts in the effort to make amends, but that depends on

Alastar: sorry to step out so soon, but i don't want to pass out on

TheVoid: *nods and waves to reikachama*

Alastar: the floor from hurt brain again

Inuyoko: No worries, Alastar. Thank you for coming :)

WillaLala: the judgement of the ones who were wronged.

Inuyoko: I agree.

WillaLala: And, I might add, in my opinion - some acts cannot be

WillaLala: undone or amended, but that is an entire subject in 

WillaLala: itself.

Kedian: Perhaps one becomes a dubhaimid by committing such acts.

Inuyoko: Very much so.

Inuyoko: Oh? That's an interesting thought.

Kedian: Maybe there are just certain things that cannot be undone,

SethRichards: *nods in agreement* Some things sh-should not be -

Dravenor: thank you priestess inuyoko

Kedian: certain things that are so far beyond the pale as to be 

Dravenor: this has been another wonderful, and insightful mass!

SethRichards: forgiven at all. Or expected to b-be.

Absobel: I'll be leaving too, thanks a lot and byyyyeee

Inuyoko: You're welcome, Dravenor.

Inuyoko: Take care~

Kedian: possible to twist the spark entirely.

Inuyoko: And you, Absobel~

TheVoid: Thank you for the insight, this mass was most excellent

TheVoid: and i appreciate what we have all discuseed 

Inuyoko: Thank you,  TheVoid.

Inuyoko: Take care~

TheVoid: i-it has given me quite a bit to think on

SethRichards: Interestin' thoughts and mass. Th-thank you.

Kedian: Yes...thank you very much.

Inuyoko: You're welcome, Seth. And Kedian

WillaFel: Yeeey *pushes up glasses*

Kedian: I think I should be heading back to Rucesion.

TheVoid: i always look forward to your masses inuyoko thank you 

Inuyoko: Please take care if you're heading out, friends.